We all know leads are a huge part of your wholesaling business. Special guest Brandon Bateman joins Brent Daniels today to discuss his strategies and methods for getting leads for wholesalers. Specifically, Brandon specializes in pay-per-click advertising. You’ll get to learn more about the key metrics and performance indicators that are vital to success.
Using Digital Advertising for Your Wholesaling Business ft. Brandon Bateman
It is my pleasure to introduce to the Wholesaling Inc show, to the Rhino Tribe, my pay-per-click and Facebook Master, the guy that controls all of my internet leads, Mr. Brandon Bateman. Brandon, how are you?
I’m doing great. How are you doing?
I am excited to have you on here because getting internet leads means a couple of different things. It means one, typically you’ve got the ball rolling with some of the traditional marketing or prospecting techniques. Either you’re doing well with making your cold calls, texting, or referrals to the point where you’re ready to add another marketing channel. Not a lot of people come out right out of the gates and have a good enough budget to be able to do a lot of pay-per-click or Facebook. We’ll break down why.
We’ll break down the numbers here and what the expectation should be in major markets and then in some smaller markets with Brandon here. It means that once you start turning on your internet leads, it’s essentially, “We’re adding the second and third marketing channel. The business is doing well. It’s very healthy. It’s very profitable.” That’s exciting. When you come into our lives, Brandon, it’s like a breath of fresh air.
These are leads that are the biggest potential for lay downs than any other marketing channel that we’ve experienced. These people are ready. They’re hot. They want to take action now. They’re filling out forms online and their timeline is short. All of those are a perfect combination for a good deal. How long have you been doing this, Brandon? What’s your company name? What’s your strategy? Why are all the top people around the country working with Brandon?
The company name is Bateman Collective. We’ve been generating motivated seller leads for about a few years now. It’s an industry I stumbled upon that we started working with Cody Hofhine. That’s who introduced us back when we met. We started working with his company and realized that digital marketing works well. We found a great niche in this industry in general. What we do differently from most companies is we’re a lot more data-driven. Everything we do is built around that strategy.
We consider ourselves to be even more of a technology and research company than a marketing agency in the traditional sense. That’s where we invest a lot into research and development. We work a lot with understanding not just what generates leads but the right leads for our clients. That’s what makes the difference. Our product is the product of years and years of split testing. Millions of dollars have been spent to figure out what works and we never stopped that process.
I was always leery because I got approached by a lot of different pay-per-click companies and people throughout networking and being around and in certain masterminds. I always found that the people that were very gregarious like me, marketing forward, and proactive always didn’t have the best results. All the guys that were super-geniuses and analytical that went for the data and the science behind what is happening here always seem to be getting people better results. It’s a different world, at least in my opinion, because I love going out there. I love being loud. I love talking to as many people as possible and being as proactive as possible.
The flip side of that is the analytical and digging into the data side of how we get the best leads for the best budget. That’s why I’m looking at the numbers here. It’s over 600,000 in the last several months. We started with you in August 2021 and that’s incredible. We have an average spend, which is interesting. You had us start low and then start ramping up to now $15,000 a month. Before it was $5,000, $10,000, and $12,000, and ticking up to understand and get a gauge on the data in our markets, which is important. Go into that. Why step this thing up? Why is that a smart strategy? Why not throw $100,000 at your first campaign and go bananas?
It is recommended to spend a lot of money on your first digital marketing campaign. You just have to know how to spend it.
Maybe I can clarify something. I fully recommend spending a lot of money on your first campaign. The question is, how do you spend it? We said the same thing as you. We started small and then grew. We always started with that six-month timeline. We knew that we were going to get to that higher budget but at the beginning of a campaign, there’s always waste. You have to dial in some of those leading metrics. We have to start feeding the leads to your team. You got to make sure that your team’s getting leads quickly and get some of those core things there.
We have to make sure that our cost per lead is working out about where we want it to be and that the quality of leads looks approximately correct before we add an additional budget to it. Some of our clients don’t even wait to get a great return on investment before they start scaling budgets. If you see the leading metrics, then the lagging metrics will follow. If you come in guns blazing and spend a whole bunch of money fast, Google will eat you up. You have to be careful about that. You got to get control first, then scale.
What is leading and lagging mean when it comes to internet leads?
I’m sure you’re familiar with leading and lagging metrics in just business in general. Leading metrics, being the concept, are the things that are leading indicators of success and things that happen more frequently. They show quick movements. Lagging metrics are the things that usually businesses care about more but they take time to see.
For example, in a real estate business like yours, a good leading metric would be lead flow. A good lagging metric would be revenue. You’re going to get the lead flow. That’s going to take some time for those leads to turn into deals. It’s going to take time for those deals to turn into revenue. If you’re watching revenue in your business, then things could tank without you even realizing it. Maybe your leads completely stopped but your revenue still looks fine because you’re closing stuff from last month. It happens to people all the time.
It’s like that. Most aspects of businesses have leading and lagging indicators. In digital marketing, the leading indicators are the things that happen quickly, which is in the things that we have a lot of data. If you picture a funnel, you’re going to have at-the-top impressions like people who saw your ad, and then you’re going to have clicks, like who clicked your ad. You’re going to have leads, then qualified leads, appointments, contracts, and deals.
There’s a stage that every seller goes through. You have it in your CRM. You have it in digital marketing platforms. The higher you are in that funnel, the less relevant that metric is to your business but the more data points you have for it. You’re looking at like website traffic clicks. You have a ton of data telling you what the case is with that but who cares about clicks? We care about ROI. ROI is at the bottom of that funnel. If you measure it early, then you set yourself up for failure. The result that you’re going to measure is going to be almost disconnected from the true reality of what the campaigns will produce.
What we do is we basically step deeper in the funnel as time goes on. In the early stages, we’re looking at things like, “Are we getting clicks? Are we getting leads? What is our cost per lead look like?” The assumption being at every stage, if we can get it to a normal benchmark, then the lagging metrics will follow. That’s how we can be comfortable spending money. We don’t throw it out into the universe and hope that things happen.
There’s a metric that we should be hitting at every point of the campaign. We want to make sure that we’re looking at the right metric. If you look at the wrong metric, then get scared because money is going out but money’s not coming in. You make poor decisions based on sparse data sets. All that stuff is a problem. If you look at the leading indicators and you make decisions based on those, you can often predict the lagging indicators pretty easily.
Is the leading indicator a lead? You gave me six steps, impression, clicks, lead, quality lead, contract, and closing. What is the leading indicator there?
Think of it as a scale. The first ones are most leading. The last ones are the least leading and the most lacking the deeper you go. Lead is something that’s like on the leading side. It’s not as early as a click.
In our business, Brandon, it’s quality lead. It’s those ones that come in because then it’s on us. Once that quality lead comes in, then there’s lead follow-up. There’s the offer presentation. There’s pre-qualifying. Once we know that is a qualified lead, somebody that wants to sell their property. They want to trade potential equity in this property for speed and convenience. It’s like my whole team goes bananas. They start jumping out of their seats. They start fist-pumping.
They get so excited when they get one of these leads coming in. It’s like something falling into their lap. It’s a shorter timeline from the time that lead comes into the time we get paid on it. When we’re prospecting, reaching out, and building our business, we want to keep the most profits and our marketing budget low. We’ve got to reach out to these property owners by door knocking or by calling them.
When we do that, it’s on average 92 days from the first conversation we have to us getting paid. It’s much shorter on pay-per-click. On our business, it’s right around 36 days, which is 2/3 faster than the typical deal. We’re getting paid next month on this thing and it fell into our lap. That’s very exciting for our business. We’ve got four legs to our stool. Our goal is $2 million. We did $1.1 in 2021. Our goal is $2 million in 2022. It is cold calling. It is texting. It is referrals and it is Brandon Bateman. It is Bateman Collective. It’s the pay-per-click. It’s the Facebook ads as well. Those are the four that we have.
I will caution everybody. I started this business in 2013. I didn’t start out with all of these things. I built these things. I built the systems to be able to handle each one of these processes because they’re all a little bit different. You have to have the process built when an internet lead comes in. Brandon, how fast do we have to respond?
Sixty seconds is the benchmark.
We don’t just throw it out into the universe and hope that things happen. There’s a metric that we should be hitting at every point of the digital marketing campaign.
If either yourself or your staff doesn’t have the capacity to make sure that you get that, I’m getting that deal. Somebody else in your market is getting that deal. Opendoor is getting that deal. Offerpad is getting that deal. Redfin is getting that deal. Somebody else’s getting that deal and it’s not going to be you. You have to build the systems to be able to implement each and every different marketing channel.
Don’t throw it all in at once and hope that it happens. You’re calling Brandon. You’re like, “Why aren’t I closing all these leads?” “It looks like you’re getting enough clicks and enough leads. What’s going on as soon as you get these? Are you responding to them fast enough?” Get an all-huffy, “We are. I’ve got the greatest team of all time,” when they’re not. Let’s be honest, right, Brandon?
I talked to a lot of people that say they have the greatest team of all time. To be fair, if you’re going to have the greatest team of all time, you have to believe that. I’m not knocking that at all. Statistically, a lot of teams do a lot better than a lot of other teams, is what we find. There are real tangible differences. There are three things that we say.
One is speed. It gets one of the biggest things. It’s not just to the lead. It’s to the appointment. The seller says, “I can meet next week.” The answer is, “I’m in the area now. Are you sure you can’t talk in 20 minutes?” A lot of our clients that are doing well push a lot of urgencies on appointments as well. There are two other things where people are wrong.
The next one is assuming motivation. You share this. This is why your team does well with these leads. You say, when a lead comes in through digital, your team gets excited. They believe that there’s an opportunity there. Most leads don’t close. Even if you have a closer on PPC leads of maybe 1 in 10, 90% of the time, that lead is not going to be one that closes. They have to believe that is going to be one or else when one comes, they’re not going to make benefit from it truly.
We have clients that will call the leads and qualify based on like stuff that’s common in cold calling. For example, call them and see where their price ranges and if that matches our price range or is based on the condition of the property. We talk all the time about the four pillars of motivation. The problem is if you call the leads and you qualify heavily based on those things with digital leads, then you’ll miss good deals. Online leads are skeptical. It’s very easy to mistake skepticism for lack of motivation.
When the reality is, they hold their cards a little closer. We find that our clients all qualify for digital leads is that it’s a person who has a house to sell and they’re willing to take an appointment. They get the same close rate on the appointments as they do with a cold call lead when they qualify for a pillar of motivation.
This is huge. If you get a lead and they want to sell, they’re ready to sell, or they’ve made the decision that they are selling this property, go to that appointment.
Not every single one’s going to be a deal but you will miss deals if you don’t go.
You have to get them. You have to get close. You have to meet them eye-to-eye, face-to-face, somebody on your staff, get in front of them. We don’t care if they tell us that they want $500,000. We look on Zillow and it’s $300,000. We’re going on that appointment. We’re going to have a decent conversation. I am not one for that. The reason I say that is because budget-wise, Brandon, we’re anywhere between $400 and $500 a lead for us but you’re right. It’s about 1 in 10 closes. You can look at the budget, $15,000.
Eventually, we get three deals from those leads. We go to all those appointments. We go out there because you’re right. They want to be short. They’re on the internet. They’re not these chatty, expressive personalities. They want to make sure that you’re real and that you’re serious. We go out on every single one of them. Are we going to not get 9 out of 10 of them? Sure, but we’ll get that one and it’s been very significant. These deals are over $50,000 for us. All of our deals are over $50,000 but it’s not like you’re getting thin deals from these pay-per-click leads. I love that you said that. You got speed. You got assumed motivation. What’s your third?
I don’t have a cool name for the third one. You’ll have to forgive me. It’s about who is the person talking to the seller. Where we see people having a tough time is they have a lead manager that’s not super qualified, like calling the leads initially or a virtual assistant. Here’s the thing. Let’s say we look at this lead. Put yourself in the mindset of the seller for a moment.
I have the pain. This pain motivates me to go to Google. I search for a solution. When people are in pain, they want to fix that thing. What ends up happening a lot of times is they’ll reach out to someone online. Instead of solving their pain, they set an appointment to solve their pain later. The seller continues to look because they still have the pain.
At some point, they’re going to come across a company. That company is going to make them feel more understood than any other companies do. They’re going to build a rapport. The seller is going to believe that company does buy a lot of homes in the area, is reputable, and will give them the right price. Sellers are emotional. They make their decision about who they’re going to work with sometimes, even in the first 60 seconds of a phone call emotionally. They won’t tell you but ultimately, they always are rooting for one particular company in the back of their minds.
You could separate all the different things in your business into dollars per hour. There are $2 per hour activities, $50 per hour activities, and $1,000 per hour activities. I’m convinced that one of the highest dollar-per-hour activities that exist in your business is the time spent calling those leads initially right after they come in. The reason being that is the seller is going to make a decision. That’s where you have a great likelihood of closing the lead or not.
Some people pay the person who makes that call less money than they pay their janitor. That completely drives me crazy because it’s like one of the highest value activities in the entire business. These people are skeptical. If you’re not working like that, you’ll see that leads are ghosting you. You’ll think that they were a good lead but now they’re not getting to me.
When a lead comes in through digital, your team gets excited. They believe that there’s an opportunity there. But you know most leads don’t close.
Maybe they’d never even got to me. The reason is they talked to someone else and that person made them feel like you don’t matter. You want to be the person they talk to that makes them feel like your competitors don’t matter. It takes skill to do that. You got to be a closer, not just someone who asks questions.
I couldn’t agree with you more. It goes directly to my acquisition managers. It does not pass or go. It does not collect $200. It is going directly to my acquisition manager and they’re getting on there. Let’s talk about the budget. What do you think if somebody is starting out? Let’s say major market first and then let’s go maybe more rural, maybe a smaller market. Is there a difference in the budget that people can expect? How many months do you think that they should budget to get their pain up and running to start producing some deals?
The whole major versus smaller market with digital is interesting. The reason is that with a cold call, for example, there’s going to be a way different level of competition in the major market versus not. In digital marketing, that’s true but, at the same time, digital marketing loves big volume. That’s where sometimes small markets are a higher cost per lead for us than major markets.
It depends on budgets and everything like that because it’s also a factor of how aggressive are you compared to how much volume there is there? Do you have to cold call every list or can you use the niche list? If your budget’s too big, you can’t hit the niche list. It’s going to be different. If we’re looking at starting budgets, we have clients starting on the low end, anywhere from $3,000 per month, and on the high end, as high as maybe $15,000 starting out. There’s everything in between.
Usually, on the low end, they’re working with one channel. On the high end, you’re usually working with three channels. We’re utilizing SEO, PPC, Facebook ads, and everything in between. You can’t push smaller markets as high but it doesn’t change how low you can go. For timeframes, I would basically multiply your monthly budget by six months and you have to think that way. You have to look in your bank account. For example, my budget is $6,000 a month. In six months, it’s $36,000. I set that aside. I’m ready to spend that. You have to give it the time it needs to be successful. Six months is our benchmark for where we think it’s reasonable to find good success.
You talk about a tapered approach. Let’s take your example. I have $36,000. Month one, am I spending $6,000, or $2,000?
Probably $6,000. It depends on your market. If your market’s small, maybe not. Probably %6,000 starting out. The reason is we want to collect a good amount of data. With $6,000, I’d be keen on working on 2 platforms, not just 1. We’re working with three per platform.
What are the two platforms?
Facebook and Google, probably with a $6,000 budget and probably not enough to add anything as well. That’s probably where we would start then we potentially scale beyond that. If our clients are thinking of $36,000 in 6 months, what that means is 6 months at $6,000 each. Unless we catch a lot of traction, in which case, then we pump it up. We’re prepared to spend the $6,000.
The starting budget is the sustaining budget. This is what we could spend every single month consistently for six months. If we add in a deal that bumps in $30,000 in revenue into the equation, that changes a little bit because now we’ve got more money to play with. Maybe we can scale it or something but you need some type of place that is a sufficient enough budget that you won’t go below for six months.
For Facebook ads, are you talking about getting a studio? We have to shoot it with good cameras. We need to do a video of our company like you would see on TV? Is it turn the camera around and do some more personalized type of ads? Is it a picture on Facebook? What is the best? Have you seen any trends there? Have you seen any of that move the needle a lot faster than others?
We have tried the ridiculous range of Facebook ad videos. I’m thinking of things that our clients have given us that we tested. We have one that was like a Muppet News Show Facebook ad. We had one where this guy was like eating a sandwich while talking about how you should sell your house to him and describing the houses he buys.
We’ve had people professionally produce animated videos, testimonials, or all of the above. There are a couple of things that tend to work well. Positively, for anybody wanting to get into this, it’s not something that requires a lot of resources. It turns out all of those high production value or animated videos that we have ever tried have never worked. This is one of the clearest split tests we have ever had.
We have one that works and the reason is it almost didn’t look like it was professionally produced. It got away with what the theme is. It’s filmed down in the corner of something. The reason is you become blind to ads if you’re thinking of Facebook, where someone has skipped right past your ad. If your ad looks like an ad, they’re not even going to give it two seconds. If your ad looks like a post on Facebook, then they’ll at least see what it’s about. Let’s say they have a house to sell, hopefully. That’s where we don’t like high-production quality.
A few staples that work for us are selfie-style videos. Someone preferably was going to an appointment talking about how they help sellers and stuff. You’ve probably seen some of those before. Also, images of houses are still a staple. Our clients always look at it. “I don’t like that. That’s boring. It just has an image of a house,” but they work well. They’re still a good staple for performance. Although, ideally, it’s not about having videos or images. It’s about having both. Often, they’ll perform similar readings. Different things will impact different people. Having a variety of different assets allows you to pull the most sellers into leads out of your market.
As a business owner, you’ve spent millions of dollars testing things out. You’ve tested it out for years and years and it changes. In general, digital marketing is a moving target at all times. You have to keep testing. It’s never-ending, isn’t it?
Just put yourself in the mindset of the seller.
It is. We have not spent a single dollar that wasn’t on a split test for the past few years. We can never do it without that.
Brandon, we’ve had a few conversations. This is the best conversation that we’ve had that gets to the point of it. It’s six steps, impression, click lead, quality lead, contract, closing, three steps to success, speed to the lead, assuming the motivation, and building your skills. Work with somebody that is a data scientist who is going to get into the nitty-gritty of what’s going on with the numbers and loves the numbers. Have a budget of $5,000 to $15,000. Set it aside at least six months’ budget before you start this campaign.
As we wrap this thing up, let’s talk about people doing this themselves. Give them some advice. People are going to start creating their creative people. They’ve had some digital marketing experience or they want to train themselves on it. They have an interest in doing it themselves. What does that look like? We’ll talk about if you have the capacity or if it’s a waitlist to work with you. If somebody is out there by themselves, how do they do it?
They have to think long and hard about that. We’ve seen so many people run their own ads. I know one who is doing an actual good job. A lot of them don’t know what they’re missing. A lot of them noticed what they were missing when they started working with us and we can get them better results. The most expensive marketing campaign is the one that doesn’t work.
If it works, who cares what it costs? That’s where it’s hard to justify not hiring the experts unless you are like the person that’s going to own that completely. Even if you could, it’s probably not the highest value that you have in your business if you’re at least running the business. There are lots of channels you could do yourself, like a cold call or direct mail, for example. Some people like to do that on their own. That’s fine. Digital is one of those things that’s wacky enough and hard.
If you look at our average client, they need 4% better results on their marketing to cover our feet entirely. You have to think like someone who does this all day every day versus someone who doesn’t. The data advantage is insane because we have so much data from all this testing and working with so many clients. We aggregate that all together. That’s what I would highly recommend.
If you’re not ready and you can’t afford to hire an expert, then I would argue that you can’t afford to start visual marketing anyways. Maybe focus on some lower-budget channels first. If someone wants to see what that looks like, they can feel free to reach out. You can go to BatemanCollective.com/BrentDaniels. We’ve got a place where you can follow some information to get in touch with my team.
Reach out to TTP to make it easier, Brandon.
Let’s make it easier.
You’re the digital guy, BatemanCollective.com/TTP, if you are interested in that. Check them out. I assume people are beating down your door. When we got in, it was because I knew Cody. Now, you’ve been expanding and bringing other people on that to know what they’re doing. Do you have the capacity now?
We do. We’ve about doubled the size of our team in the past months and about quadruple in the past year from a capacity standpoint. We’ve got some killer people on. Our waitlist is almost gone. We’ve got a little bit of a waitlist still. We’re looking, let’s say, a few weeks out up to a month at most onboarding. That’s been pretty long in the past. It’s in a good place if someone’s looking to get started with us.
If you are a consistent closing deals, you’ve got your other marketing channels up and running, and you need to add paper, this is the one you have to add. The ROI on it makes sense. The leads make sense. Your acquisition managers are going to love it. It’s going to be like Christmas presents every time that they get a lead. I’m telling you from personal experience. This is how it’s going to be. You can look at all the major companies around the country. They all are doing pay-per-click. Brandon’s working with a lot of them. If you’re interested in that, get on the waiting list at BatemanCollective.com/TTP. Brandon, any final thoughts?
No, I’m grateful to have this conversation.
Thank you so much, Brandon. Thank you all for being out there, reading and watching this. If you are reading to this and you want to put a face to a voice, make sure you go to Brent Daniels’s YouTube channel and check out this interview. You can send it to all your friends or all your business partners if you’re interested in adding pay-per-click and Facebook ads to your business and marketing channels. That’s it. As always, I sign off from the Wholesaling Inc show, encouraging you to go out there and talk to people. Love you, guys. I’ll see you soon.
- Bateman Collective
- Brent Daniels – YouTube
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About Brent Daniels
Brent Daniels is a multi-million dollar wholesaler in Phoenix, Arizona… and the creator of “Talk To People” — a simple, low cost, and incredibly effective telephone marketing program… Also known as “TTP”… it helps wholesalers do more, bigger, and more profitable deals by replacing traditional paid advertising (postcards, yellow letters, bandit signs, and PPC) with being proactive and taking action every single day! Brent has personally coached over 1,000 wholesalers enrolled in his “Cold Calling Mastery” training, and helped 10,000’s of others who listen to him host the Wholesaling Inc. podcast, watch his YouTube channel, and attend his live events… A natural leader, Brent combines his passion for helping others with his high energy, “don’t-wait-around-for-business” attitude to help you CRUSH your wholesaling goals as quickly and easily as possible!