Posted on: May 19, 2021

Since the launching of REI Radio over a year ago, it has helped students set up radio stations in 45 out of 50 states, enabling REI Radio to get more data to assess if the strategy works nationwide.

With the help of Grace Mills, the radio ads manager of REI Radio, she will share the learnings from the one year worth of data gathered in this episode. Grace is a visionary who took the radio to a different level with her vast understanding of what it can offer. She is famous among coaching program students, being at the frontline, helping them pick out the suited. She also takes charge in looking at all the data gathered.

In this episode, Grace will walk through the five by-products of the data gathered and analyzed that REI Radio learned so far and the fruits they see on the radio that they have not seen before.

There are more interesting data finds that Grace will talk about in this episode. Listen and learn more about radio and its potential as a marketing channel.

Key Takeaways

  • Grace talks about the buying strategy with radio;
  • How much fees students are paying at a discount based on what Grace sees on the data
  • The by-product she sees when students are paying way less for their radio ads
  • The by-product she sees because radio is low maintenance as a marketing channel
  • The by-product she sees that students have come back with the credibility they have
  • The by-product she sees in terms of students’ growth when getting a call that might not fit their niche
  • Her view on the market size or market type as a whole
  • Her thoughts on the pros and value of being in a large vs. small market for radio
  • The by-product she sees when students who tried to do it themselves came back to sign up for the program
  • On radio as a blue ocean and its challenges
  • Some of the biggest wins for Grace

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Episode Transcription

Chris Arnold:
Welcome to the Wholesaling Inc. podcast. I’m your host, Chris Arnold. As always, grateful for you guys to join us today. This is about to get real interesting. I am excited to talk you guys through really what this topic is going to be today. So we launched radio, it’s been over a year ago, and at this point, really help students set up radio in roughly about 45 out of the 50 states. So the first thing I want you to hear on that, which means at this point, we have a lot of data. When we started radio, the only place that we utilized it, well, it was for us. It was obviously in the state of Texas, in a large market in Dallas. And we really believed it was going to work nationwide, but the reality was we didn’t have the data. We just had the belief that it would work.
Well, we do have the data now and I am really excited to bring on Grace Mills, who is our radio ads manager. So let me give you a background. She’s the marketing director for my company. And so, there was a point, like we should with everything, we should leverage and hand it off. And so after several years, I handed everything over to Grace and I watched really her even surpass my understanding of radio ’cause it was for a full time job to literally, she’s listening to stations and researching, and she just took radio to a level that I could not as a visionary ’cause I had so many other things to do, but this was her baby.
And so with our overall coaching program, everyone has come to know Grace really well. It’s funny when people have success, it’s not, “Hey, thank you, Chris.” We get a lot of high fives, like “Thank you, Grace,” right? Because she’s on the front lines helping the students pick the right stations in their market, looking at all the data. And so, I’ve got Grace on today. And we had a conversation, I was like, “Let’s take a look at all this data and figure out what are some of the byproducts that we have seen for our students through this data. So that’s what you’re going to get today. What have we learned after over a year putting students in 45 states in all types of markets and different demographics, et cetera? What have we learned? And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. So Grace Mills, welcome to the show. Glad to have you.

Grace Mills:
No, thank you so much for having me. I was excited to be here.

Chris Arnold:
Awesome. So let’s break this down. There are really five byproducts that we want to walk through as you went through all the data and just said, “These are some really interesting things that we’ve learned in this journey so far.” So the first thing you wanted to talk about was some byproducts that you saw from our buying strategy. So my first question is, and this is a bit of our secret sauce, what is our buying strategy with radio? Do we buy retail? Do we buy discounted? What are we teaching students how to do?

Grace Mills:
Yeah. So in radio world, and sales reps hate that we even know this, you don’t have to buy what we really call market price and their market prices, to be honest with you, really have no foundation. They sort of make them up as they’re going along. They sort of base it on what they deem to be demand for right now. And so at any given week or any given month, they’re liable to throw you this astronomically [hot 00:04:07] high amount just to get started on radio.
With our buying strategy, we actually sized up pricing based on the size of the station, right, because that’s where our return is, is in the actual audience. So if you’re going to buy radio, it’s pretty, the best way to approach it is, is gauging the size of the audience that you know roughly who’s there that you could potentially making any profit on. So we look at the [inaudible 00:04:31], which is just one of Nielsen’s many measurements of determining the size of a station. And we take that size and then go, “Okay, well, hey, I’m going to come in at this price based on the size of your station,” which is much lower than the market price or the guaranteed price that that sales rep usually tries to sell people on, which is based on reach or an impression of a much larger audience that honestly doesn’t exist.

Chris Arnold:
So it would kind of be like, if I put that in real estate terms, we run comps on a radio station just like you would run comps on a house. So just because a seller thinks their house is worth X and they make up that number, well, you don’t buy the house for that. You come in and do your due diligence to say, “Well, I know you think it’s worth this, but based on all this data, it’s worth that.” So that strategy with real estate’s the exact same strategy that we employ with radio, correct?

Grace Mills:
Yes, yes, yes.

Chris Arnold:
Okay. So now, these students are coming in and they’re buying at a discount and you actually have some data on this. So in comparison to the retail pricing that most people pay for radio on average, what are our students paying as a discount or under? What are you seeing?

Grace Mills:
Yeah, I’d say it’s 60 cents on the dollar. So there’s the market price and I’d say roughly, it’s about 40% below that actual market price so 60 cents on the dollar is what they’re getting in terms of pricing-

Chris Arnold:
Wow.

Grace Mills:
… a sales rep is just a salesperson, so they can get away with upselling you and getting a higher amount out of you, they will if you don’t understand that you can actually buy it based on the size of their audience, based on whatever number that they created that day or that week based on …

Chris Arnold:
Yeah. So out of all of these students in all of these different states, we have fundamentally shown people how to come in and statistically, we’re landing around 60 cents on the dollar. Now, if you’re a real estate person, that number probably sounds pretty similar to what we buy houses for. We try to buy around 70 cents on the dollar. So I think you get this. The reason that you have a successful real estate business is because you buy at 60 to 70 cents on the dollar. The reason our students are successful on radio is because they’re not paying retail. They’re consistently buying at 60, 70 cents on the dollar.
Now I want to get to the first byproduct of this. What byproduct have you seen when all of a sudden, a student is paying so much less for their radio ads? Because our average student is spending what? I know roughly, I know this number exactly, they’re spending between 500 to maybe max $2,000 a month. That’s the average spread, but what’s the byproduct that you’ve seen because of this in their businesses?

Grace Mills:
Yeah, so, and I think a lot of our students are stunned that they actually can get it so much cheaper than what they typically imagine radio could be purchased at in terms of a price. And so with being able to buy it so cheaply, it leaves a lot more wiggle room in their marketing budgets, and radio’s a great long-term marketing source, and I’ve definitely seen that our students have been able to really focus on pairing radio with expanding their targeted direct mail or online marketing or any other marketing channels that they’ve been wanting to play with. Because radio was bought so cheaply, they’ve got a lot more wiggle room to test out other marketing sources or expand on what they’re already doing.

Chris Arnold:
I think that’s valuable ’cause if I’m new and I have a limited budget that I can spend on marketing, and I pick up a channel that’s so expensive that it requires me to put all of my marketing dollars in that channel, that’s a dangerous place to be. But because radio is so much less expensive than what everyone assumes that it’s going to be, I think most people assume like 10 grand a month just to get started, all of a sudden, they’re like … You go into the store and you have a budget to buy something and you have something in mind and you see it, and it’s on sale. And then your first thought is, well, I budgeted X. So if I buy that, well, I have a little money left over and I’m also going to get this that I didn’t even know I was able to do. That’s fundamentally what you’re seeing with our students, right? Now, I can do radio and something else because it’s a lot less expensive.

Grace Mills:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Chris Arnold:
That’s awesome. That’s a great byproduct. So let’s go to number two. Again, I hear our students say it all the time. I ask so many people like, “What is one of the qualities about radio that you love the most?” And I hear this all the time, “Well, Chris, you said it. It’s set it and forget it, right? I’ve heard you say that. And now that I’m in it, it really is the lowest maintenance marketing channel I’ve ever had. I just have to pay my monthly bill and answer the phone when it rings.” But we’re talking about byproducts. So now that we’ve helped so many students, what is the byproduct that you’ve seen because radio is so low maintenance as a marketing channel?

Grace Mills:
Yeah. So with the lower maintenance, they actually have a lot more free time. They have more flexibility to focus on other things. They can either focus on other projects, but I definitely have noticed the biggest significance is, and it’s allowing students to step outside of roles that they don’t want to do, they did not want to do, so they can really focus on growing their business in general, either again, expanding into additional projects or expanding their team so they’re able to pass off more tasks to, again, just focus on growing their business.

Chris Arnold:
I mean I totally agree with that. I had a couple of people tell me, “Hey, I feel like every time I start a marketing channel when it’s prospecting or outbound based, I literally just create an entire new job for myself in the business.” So what you’re saying is with radio, because it’s not like, okay, I’m going to talk about cold calling. It absolutely works. But the reality is if you’re making those calls, that requires time.
What happens with the student is they work to set up radio and they step back, and let’s say they did cold calling, they’re like, “Well, now I have all this time.” I’m so used to being pulled into the marketing and having to work it out, like direct mail, like building lists and making sure the postcard is right and making sure I’ve got a good system to handle all those inbound calls and et cetera, all of a sudden, they’re freed up now and they can go, “Hey, rather than having to work in my business because this marketing channel pulled me back in, I can now focus working on my business and some of the more important, bigger projects.”
That’s a huge win when you think about it because I wonder what does the trajectory of a business owner or investor look like if one has a marketing channel that’s eating up all their time versus one that’s automated and then gets to spend their time working on projects? I guarantee you after a two-year period, they’re going to be in two different places when it comes to the strength of their business. You agree with that?

Grace Mills:
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that’s what excites them the most once they get to that point. They’re like, “Oh, my gosh.” We have quite a few students that actually have a lot more free time to just talk to people-

Chris Arnold:
So they’re calling you, they’re like, “Grace, my radio set up, I’m closing the deals. Now, what do I do?”

Grace Mills:
Now, what I do? Yes. And they’ve gotten to wherever they expanded their team. They’ve got tasks off their plate and now they’re like, “Oh, yeah.” They’ve got a lot more free time on their hands, which is great.

Chris Arnold:
Yeah. It creates a lot more breathing room. And again, both outbound prospecting works and the inbound marketing works, but if you were to ask me what I personally want at the end of the day, I want as much free time as possible. I want a business in which I am not a slave to my business, but my business serves me and gives me that quality of life that I’m looking for. And honestly, the type of marketing channels you pick determine how much freedom you’re going to have. I mean it’s pretty common sense.
So let’s go to number three. This is an interesting one. A lot of people ask me, “Well, I would imagine that most of your students, right, that do radio are really seasoned.” And I got a lot of that in the beginning when I talked about radio like, “Well, you’re going after the big dogs. There’s not a lot of new people to the business who are going to do it.” And man, that stat ended up coming in strong that pretty much 80% of our students have been in the business less than 12 to 24 months. And one of the things we know with a student is if they’re in a market where there’s a lot of competition and so forth, they’re just trying to kind of gain some credibility, right?
So number three, radio creates a ton of credibility because it makes you a celebrity in your market and gives you instant credibility because you’re trusted on that platform. But what byproduct have you seen that students have come back to you now that they have this credibility and they’ve only been in the business, let’s say, six months. What other opportunities, what byproducts has this created?

Grace Mills:
Yeah, I think for them definitely, sort of two-fold. They get a lot of calls now from other investors in their market and those other investors are like, “Oh, wow. I’m hearing you on the radio. You’ve got to be a big player then ’cause you’re on the radio. You have to be this big player in our market.” And so, they can’t wait to actually network and talk and potentially do deals with that student just based on hearing them on the radio.
And on the flip side of that are additional stations, other companies start hearing them on station ABC and they go, “Hey, would you like to expand to our station? I wanted to be able to meet with you and talk to you about what we can do for you over here as well.” Because once you are on the radio and you have that credibility, a lot of people are going, “Hey, that’s got to be a big player in our market then if they’re … ”

Chris Arnold:
Yeah. And when we look at people’s dollar per dollar returns, and we know that radio returns an average of 3 to $4, so that means you triple to quadruple your investment, but what is not in that measurement is the byproduct of all the other opportunities that come. So you’re talking about the fact that I advertise on radio. Everyone automatically thinks, oh, Chris os big player ’cause only big players can afford to be on radio. This is what we now kind of laugh about are all these assumptions about radio. And you’re right, all of a sudden, you start getting JV opportunities. Hey, can you help me move this deal or can I do that? And now, you’ve got this other stream of income coming in because you’re now magnetic to these opportunities.
It’s not just that. I mean we have heard stories of people raising money because they were heard on the radio, with vendors coming in and discounting services if you’re a fix and flip person, which is really awesome. What do I got to do to be your contractor? I mean you’ve got to be a big player. I want to help you flip your houses. And then the other side is all of a sudden, these other stations hear you and they come knocking on your door and they want to do a deal. And Grace, have you found that the longer someone’s on radio, the easier it is to pick up additional stations at a discounted price because they have credibility?

Grace Mills:
Yes. And it’s a lot of leverage in their next negotiations because that person goes, “Oh, yeah, that’s right. They are on two of our competitors.” And so it definitely, it plays into their favor very well when they are trying to expand into additional stations, absolutely.

Chris Arnold:
Yeah. That’s another great, great byproduct. So let’s go to number four. These are really interesting. I love this data that you pulled and we’ve talked through. So one of the things about radio is it can bring in different type of lead opportunities, right? And because radio covers a larger landscape, a lot of times, let’s take Dallas/Fort Worth where we’re at, we can get calls in areas that are outside of what I would say is our core preferred area. So what is the byproduct of, all the sudden, I’m getting calls for opportunities that might not fit my niche, little wholesale bucket that I’m looking for? What has that actually done to the students? What are you seeing in the sense of their growth because of that?

Grace Mills:
Yeah, I definitely say that it challenged them, but it also enabled them to start to expand their repertoire of how they typically do things. I’ve had a couple of students double back to me and say, “Hey, Grace, this station I was afraid of initially because it was outside of what I typically service, but now actually, I’m at a point where I’m ready to service that.” They have definitely taken the opportunity to expand their buyers list to expand other creative ways of dispelling those potential properties. I definitely think that it challenged them in a great way to expand what they’ve already been playing with and …

Chris Arnold:
Yeah, it’s interesting ’cause all of a sudden, we have students that were wholesalers, but now they might get in and pick up some land because they get some land opportunities or they start looking and going, “Hey, I got some really great subject to or seller financing options.” So what’s interesting about radio and this byproduct is it’s kind of, in a good way, challenging the investor to get mature faster because it’s like I might want to go learn about something, but when all of a sudden, the opportunity comes before I’ve learned something, I’m like, “Well, the opportunity’s here. There’s money on the table if I just go learn this thing, then I can capitalize on what I already have.” And so what we’ve seen is it’s definitely come in and sped up the overall growth of the real estate investor, which I think is super important. Yeah.

Grace Mills:
Absolutely.

Chris Arnold:
Absolutely. Now, with utilizing that kind of side of getting those different opportunities and so forth, what have you seen with market size as a whole? Because I know one of the questions I always get, and I mean I think this question is asked about everything, it’s like the number one objection, will this work in my market? I know it works in Dallas/Fort Worth. And again, we didn’t have data on a small market in the Midwest or let’s say West Coast California, San Diego, right, or somewhere up in the Northeast. I mean we just didn’t have the data, but my question is what are you seeing on this now with all of these different markets?

Grace Mills:
Yeah, honestly, and I definitely hear that a lot with newer students is they get a little nervous in terms of the market type or the market size, all markets are successful. Honestly, what I’ve seen from what my view, the biggest push there is, again, back to students that are able to build out a network and build out that buyers list. I’ve not seen one market not be successful. They can get on the radio, there’s a radio station there, they’re able to reach motivated home sellers. And as long as they’re able to build out and network their buyers list, they have no problem moving any of the properties in any market size, big, large, small, rural or metro or larger cities. I’m not seeing a market size that a student has really had an issue with.

Chris Arnold:
So I want to break this down. I want to challenge just a little bit so let me play devil’s advocate. What is the value of a small market over a large market or … I mean I understand that they’re all working, but there’s got to be some pros and cons to both. So my question is what’s the best about being in a small market versus a large market? If someone’s listening right now and goes, “I want to know that advantage.” What advantage do you have being a small market for radio?

Grace Mills:
I’ll tell you, in a small market, our students are able to dominate actually a little bit quicker than in some of the larger markets and that’s really just due to what’s available to them. In some of the smaller markets, they are able to pick up two stations for the price of one station would be in someone’s slightly larger market. In some of the smaller markets, they’re able to dominate it much quicker and continue expanding into additional stations.

Chris Arnold:
Yeah. So if I’m in a city that has a couple hundred thousand people or small, it’s not going to be hard for everyone to get to know me really fast if I’m on a couple stations. And in comparison, and I honestly get a, so do you, a little bit jealous of this of we look at our marketing budget for DFW, and then we ask somebody over that has the same amount of stations, and their overall ending budget is a lot less than ours. And we’re like, “Oh, my gosh. I can’t believe you got it for even that far under what we’re able to get it for, for Dallas.” Now let me flip it. What is the value of being in a large market over a small market?

Grace Mills:
So I’d say in the larger markets, they are able to hop on a station, reach a mass number of people all in one versus having to be forced to sort of pick up to, to sort of hopefully find some sort of balance. They’re able to jump into one station and [read 00:20:38] a mass number of home sellers and then, grow slowly if they actually do decide to do so.

Chris Arnold:
Okay. So what you’re seeing is each market wins, but each market wins for different reasons.

Grace Mills:
For different-

Chris Arnold:
So it’s kind of a pros and cons balance and so … And that’s the thing I love about real estate now, you can do deals in your town or we have students now that buy in areas that are not the primary area that they live in. They’re doing virtual deals and maybe their market is sold out and they go, “Well, I’d love to have it in the town that I’m in, but I don’t mind going a couple of towns over,” and then they’ll pick up radio and they’ll expand that way. So, that’s the cool thing about technology. You can do real estate in any area that you want to. So number four, as we’re talking about it, is that the value that we’re seeing is all markets work in the sense of what they’re doing. And then because of that, people are expanding their strategy.
So let’s go to number five. Now, I’m going to preface this ’cause I know when I say it’s going to come along like, “Wow, this was kind of like a sales pitch.” And I’m like, no, this is actually the truth. So we’re not telling you this is the last thing to convince you, but we’re just having an honest conversation with you. And I know this because I’ve had students that have come down. I actually had one that flew all the way to [inaudible 00:21:53] and was here and sat across from me and I had this conversation with her. I remember that. And that is what you’ve learned is it’s kind of been a challenge for people that have gone outside of the way that we’re doing it and tried to do it on their own.
And again, if you go do it on your own and figure out how to do it for free, hundred percent, absolutely all day. But there are other times where I’ve tried to do that and I was like, “If I had just paid for speed, I would’ve been paying a lot less than the money and time I wasted trying to figure it out myself.” So sometimes, you want to do it for free and sometimes you should just pay for it. So what have you seen as the byproduct, if students that have gone out, tried to figure it out on their own and then came back to us and ended up signing up for the program?

Grace Mills:
Yes, and my heart goes out to them …

Chris Arnold:
I’ve had those talks. So this is actual reality. These are real conversations.

Grace Mills:
Yes. They end up with not a great deal. They end up overpaying because they did not realize that there was a way to challenge a salesperson’s pricing, right? They’re like, “Oh, well, they said this was the lowest package they had possible.” They kind of get caught up in that, in that within that package that they’re overpaying, they actually end up with less frequency. So they’re paying for more, but actually getting less.
But again, outside of our program, on paper, that looks amazing until you sort of you actually start on that station and then they go, “Hey, I was on this station for like three months or so previously, and it really didn’t produce.” And when I get my hands on their previous deal, I can actually see why. It wasn’t structured to their benefit. The sales reps are sort of treating them like as any other advertiser and just selling a package together that hopefully works because they have no expertise on what a wholesaler, what an investor, anyone in the real estate world really needs in terms of an advertising schedule that could really put them in the best position to produce on that station.

Chris Arnold:
Yeah. The thing I’ve realized is radio is such a blue ocean, which is funny. You don’t get usually a blue ocean, right, with something that has been around forever. Usually a blue ocean is innovation, right? But what’s innovative about radio is the fact that it simply has been sitting there, but never applied for us as wholesalers and fix and flippers and to find investment properties. And so with that being a blue ocean, there’s really not any information out there. I tell people, “Go to YouTube, go Google around.” I still haven’t come across anyone still at this point, you and I, Grace had been doing this over a year, and I don’t know anyone else that’s teaching radio and real estate yet.
And so I think the challenge is … I would say if someone came to me and said, “Hey, I want to do direct mail,” I think that you could fundamentally get on YouTube and watch enough podcasts to figure out how to do direct mail pretty effective. I don’t think you need to hire a coach to do that. The challenge you have with something like radio is because it’s a blue ocean, there’s just not much education. And so if you’re really considering it, again, hey, if you want to go out there and do it on your own first time, again, your world, make it happen.
But we’re just telling you that people have come back and said, “Eh, there was a specific way I needed to do this and I just didn’t do it right.” It’s kind of like somebody coming to you and saying like, Grace, let’s say I came to you and I said, “Hey, I want to wholesale deals.” And you go, “Yeah, there’s a specific way to do that.” And I go, “Well, I tell you what, before you tell me how to do it, I’m just going to run out here and do it on my own.” And you’re like, “All right, good luck. I mean I could’ve really helped you [turn 00:25:28] this a lot faster, but if you want to get out there and do it.”
So we’re really though excited because we’ve been able to add a ton of value. This marketing channel, and as you hear these byproducts, for Grace and I, we get a lot of fulfillment ’cause not only have we shown people a great channel that they didn’t know that was available. Now we get to see the fruit of all these additional byproducts, right? So all of a sudden, people now can grow their marketing faster ’cause they’re not spending as much as they were on other marketing channels. They have more time to work on their business rather than in it. Or if you’re a family person, more time to spend with your family or juggle that 9 to 5 that you’re working.
We get lot of students that go, “Man, I’m working 9 to 5 and I don’t have time to get in here and deal with something that’s going to eat a lot of my time.” They’re getting the JV opportunities as we mentioned, and obviously, just maturing faster ’cause radio will mature you in just in the way that it functions. And so I don’t know about you, Grace, but it feels pretty cool to kind of see additional fruit outside of what we were originally seeing as fruit and that’s just handing people a great marketing strategy. What do you think about that? It’s pretty cool.

Grace Mills:
Yeah. I would say it’s super … I usually tell students, I’m like, “Hey, I’m happy to help you. There was a point in time where I made a lot of mistakes and so we could sort of save you the time and the energy or even the hot seat, ’cause I got put in the hot seat quite a few times, decisions that didn’t actually play out very well. I’d be happy to just save you some of the headache and give you a little bit of peace of mind by providing any best practices and tips that we have learned the hard way.”

Chris Arnold:
Absolutely.

Grace Mills:
So I think that’s one of the biggest ones for me is being …

Chris Arnold:
Yeah, it’s cool. And Grace, you do an absolute amazing job. Just so you guys know, in REI radio, little family and tribe, everyone just loves Grace and very genuine, loves to help. This is what she gets to do now and really pour into students along with the rest of our REI radio team. So I just want to publicly thank you for what an amazing job you’ve done. I could no way do all of this radio coaching without you so … And I love everything you’ve accumulated in your brain over time really being in the trenches of this as well.
So if you’re listening and you’re like, “Man, this radio piece, I’ve been kind of riding the fence a little bit,” as we told you, we preserve markets. We limit the amount of people. Obviously, when you hear 45 out of 50 states, that means more and more markets have been bought. Obviously, there’s several markets in each state, but it’s getting more and more of stuff getting to be sold out. So hop in, check us out, ask the right questions, see if it’s a right fit for you. And the way that you can do that is go to wholesalinginc.com/reiradio. Again, that’s wholesalinginc.com/reiradio. Book a call. See if your market’s open, and let us step in and answer questions for you and make sure it’s a good fit for you.
So Grace, thanks so much for coming on. I was really excited about this talk. It was like, “Hey, let’s sit down and we’ll put all this data together.” And it was cool, some of the points that you were able to come up with.

Grace Mills:
No, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It was exciting to be here.

Chris Arnold:
Awesome. And to the rest of you guys, as always, thanks so much for joining us. Until next time, we will catch you soon when we add more value. Talk to you later.

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