If you’re truly passionate about wholesaling, you can surely attest the business can reward you in more ways than you can possibly imagine. Case in point: today’s guest earned a massive $85,000 assignment fee from just ONE wholesale deal!
Max Fisch eats, sleeps, and breathes real estate. The great thing is his efforts never go unrewarded. Over the years, Max has learned so many techniques that have helped him run a really thriving wholesaling business. The good news? He shared many of the techniques he has learned (and used) in this episode!
In addition, Max also dissected a lucrative deal he did and how he made it happen (hint: never underestimate the power of doing multiple follow-ups!). Can’t wait to do those massive deals? Start by listening to this episode!
Doing Massive Real Estate Deals in Philadelphia
If you have a phenomenal deal, there are cash buyers lining up at the door that you could find. You could rack your brain and find somebody. If you found somebody that was a financial planner, you can find somebody that has the money to close on the deal. You need to go with confidence that you can close every deal that you put under contract and you should have the intention to close every deal that you have a contract.
Welcome to the Wholesaling Inc. show, America’s number one show for new real estate investors where we know that finding discounted properties is the most proven path to financial freedom. I am your host, Brent Daniels, Mr. TTP. If I could do this starting at over $700,000 in debt from a personal judgment and build a $1 million real estate wholesaling business so can you.
Let’s get excited. Let’s get fired up. This is going to be great. This interview is going to be excellent. I’ve been waiting for this for months. I’m going to be introducing an incredible wholesaler to the Wholesaling Inc. show. He also has a cold calling company, which is interesting. We’ll get into that. More importantly, we’re going to break down a massive deal that he has done in Philadelphia and Pennsylvania. I’d love to introduce Max Fisch to the Wholesaling Inc. show.
How are you doing? Thanks for having me, Brent.
I’m excited to have you here. We’ve been talking a lot. I tested out Max’s cold callers. This is your first time reading about this. You can build an incredibly profitable real estate investing business by being extremely proactive. That’s what TTP means. It means Talk To People. It’s a command. It’s an action. There are some people talking to a lot of people making as many calls as you, Max. You’re making a ton of calls.
You have built your business by being proactive. You’ve been in this for a while. You’ve seen the ups and downs. You’ve tried everything. Let’s talk about you. Let’s talk about how you got this business and let’s talk about the evolution that you have taken and we’re going to sink our teeth in how you got a massive deal and how other people can too. Tell me about you, Max.
I’ve been doing this for a little while. I got started in the business in 2002 and bought my first property on a whim. I had started six months prior in the mortgage business as an originator. I’ve been in the business for six months so I know everything there is to know and I figured, “Let me take some action.” I had sold a property that was one of the last properties that a builder was selling in a development. He had used it as a model. I called him up and gave me a number. It was $200,000-something. I don’t remember off the top of my head but I remember the profit.
I knew it was a good deal so I bought it and ended up with pretty light rehab. I put $15,000 into it and sold it in ’03. Since then, I’ve been in different aspects of the business like mortgage origination. I was involved in commercial real estate finance. Now, I do everything from rehab to wholesale to wholetail and the cold calling business. Full-time, love it. Eat, sleep, breathe and real estate.
This is something interesting as there are certain progressions in your wholesaling business. When we’re starting out, we’re trying to get our first deal. We’re trying to find somebody, a distressed property owner that has a problem that we can solve and we get our first deal. We’re feeling excited about it and then we start building. You do have different options. This is an important point to make here guys. Wholesaling doesn’t mean you assign a deal and you make an assignment fee. That’s not what wholesaling is. Not my definition of it. Not Tom Krol’s or Cody Hofhine’s.
To me, the definition is you are sourcing real estate opportunities, that’s what wholesaling is. It’s the act of sourcing. People aren’t bringing it to you. You’re paying a premium for them to bring deals to you and they get paid. You’re going out there. You’re getting the deals from the actual distressed property owners. What Max is saying is he has different avenues for exit strategies.
In the wholesaling business, there are three parts. You are lead generation, you’re conversion and then you are exit strategy or disposition. You’re saying that you do wholetail, wholesale and flips. How do you determine it? Do you look at every property? Do you run it through some filter and determine what is the best strategy for that property?
In short, that’s a good way to look at it. I don’t do anything virtually. I’m old school in that way. I’m only in the Philadelphia market. I do try to look at every property, especially the properties that we buy. I’ve learned the different neighborhoods within the Philadelphia market. For those who don’t know, Philadelphia is a large city. Geographically speaking, there’s a lot of land. You learn the different neighborhoods.
A good way to break it down is when a deal comes in and it’s in a certain neighborhood that maybe sets off a bell, I take a good look at it. We run it through and if it makes sense then sometimes we’ll buy it and rehab it. Other times, if it’s a big profit spread, we would like to buy it and relist it, wholetail as they call it.
The stuff that doesn’t fit our model, we will wholesale. We’re looking at deals with a $250,000 ARV or higher. It costs the same amount of time, energy and money, to rehab a deal that you’re going to sell for $100,000 as it does for a deal you’re going to sell for $1 million. We will wholesale the smaller deals away and we don’t hold any residential real estate.
It almost sounds like you’re a flip first and if it doesn’t fit that model, you’re looking to wholesale it.
Assuming that we have capacity. At one point, we had 9 or 10 going at one time and that’s pretty crazy. Now we’re 3 or 4 maybe. It’s not as clean-cut. If we can rehab it, we do. We’ve got to have the capacity. We’ve got the time of the year and seasons here. We take that into account. There are some things that go into it. If we can rehab it, that’s where we’re going to maximize our revenue and that’s what we’re going to shoot for if possible.
It’s interesting, not often do we get to interview somebody that’s been in the business for more than eighteen years. Walk us through because it’s important to look back at what worked and see what isn’t working and what’s working now. I feel like it’s always the book Who Moved My Cheese? when it comes to lead generation. There are a lot of different things there. If you’re not familiar with that book, the deals aren’t going to be in the same place every single time.
The biggest deals come from follow-up.
If you’re doing direct mail, it’s not going to always work. If you’re doing pay-per-click, text blasting or voicemail drops it’s not always going to work. I’m biased here because I push cold calling. The only constant that I’ve had for the last sixteen years is consistent deals with cold calling because it’s proactive. You’re constantly building up your pipeline for leads that eventually start popping and you get consistency with your deals. What have you seen? Did you start out in this business traditionally marketing?
I started out in the mortgage business and I would physically take paper flyers around to real estate agents to drum up business, physically meet with folks, take builders out to lunch and that kind of stuff. We didn’t have Facebook advertising. Even some of the cold calling and different digital technologies that we have today, we didn’t have back then. I was hands-on, meeting face-to-face and a lot of traditional marketing. I did some direct mail but it was nothing to the scale that you see today. I know guys, even in my market, that are doing 25,000, 35,000, 50,000 mail pieces a month. I was maybe doing 5,000 to 10,000. It was more face-to-face, more about the relationship.
I focused on what we called, at that time, special finance or subprime loans. We were working with people with challenging situations, not just bad credit but maybe recent bankruptcy. Interestingly enough, a lot of the same folks that we deal with in the wholesale space are people that were motivated in some way or had some issue that they had to overcome. They didn’t have the A1 credit, a great job and could go to their local bank and get anything they wanted.
Let’s get everybody excited. Let’s break down a massive deal. Let’s talk about the deal that you did. Anybody that has read this knows that I define a massive deal as a $50,000 net to you in your bank account deal. I’d push everybody in the TTP family to it. In our first conversation that I do in our welcome call when somebody joins the TTP program, that is the first thing that I push them. They need to get a massive deal as quickly and as often as possible. Truly, in this business, we find what we’re looking for.
I know there’s a fancy scientific word for it but it’s that mental antenna that you have that once you buy a car, you see that car everywhere. Your wife’s pregnant, you’re pregnant and you see pregnant people everywhere. If you’re looking for massive deals, you will find massive deals. Max is going to break down exactly how he found one and you can take this experience and implement it into your business. Let’s break it down.
This deal was a little bit different. We were doing business in Philadelphia and my acquisitions guy was driving by a property. We identified the property and sent mail. We did all the usual channels. Even knocking on the door had no success. At the time, I was maybe three months into TTP. I have gone through all your videos. I’m all fired up. I was excited to start using the phones. At that point, I had three VAs calling for me. I provided her with all the information, property and phone number. I even gave her some pictures so she could reference them if she had to with the owner so we started calling.
VA is your professional phone prospector. VAs do a lot of different things so it sounds like an all-encompassing word. I want to make sure people aren’t confused. You’ve got people that have experienced training, everything, making these calls. Go ahead.
We tried to reach a single man. He was in his late 50s and he was a working professional. The house was dilapidated. It was an interesting story. We reached out to him 2 or 3 times. We finally get in touch with him and my caller leaves all the notes in Podio. I wanted to take this one versus my acquisitions manager. I do have one acquisitions manager. I called the guy and started talking to him. He was pretty adamant like, “I’ll listen to you for a couple of minutes to see what you’re all about but I’m not interested in selling.” “Okay, fine.”
The first contact you got with him, you tried mail, door knocking, everything was a cold call.
After 3 or 4 attempts but yes. We talked for five minutes. He acknowledged the call but was pretty adamant, “Not interested. Goodbye.” I put him into follow-up sequences. We then start following up with him again, calling him. This went on for two calls a month for four months. We’re nine months in and we finally get the guy on the phone. More notes in Podio and I see a pop-up. Based on the way I buy, I like the area, the whole thing and I get back on the phone with the guy. It took a long time. I had to go to the property a few times. He had to include his attorney and all these people.
Was it vacant? Was it a rental? You got it from your driving for dollars and we’ll touch on that because it’s critical that you need to be building up your driving for dollars list. What other list would he be on? Would he be a tired owner? Owner equity? Would he be a tired landlord?
This guy probably would have shown up on every list. He did live in the property, which was mind-boggling. From the exterior, the property reminded me of one of the haunted houses in the old movies you see up on the hill with the windows all smashed out. He did have equity but he had a mortgage, which he was laid on so he would have been on that list, high equity. He had filed for bankruptcy at one point but that was discharged so maybe even a BK list. He would have been on a lot of lists. I finally met with him. He had been through a divorce and let the property go. He was working and he had the money but it was too much for him.
Because he had bought the house with his spouse, there was this incredible emotional attachment. When I say it took a long time to work through the process, it took us two months to finally sign. He had this value in his mind that was, as usual, way far off. Once we got him to come to a reasonable number, I wanted to wholesale it but then I started looking at the property and I thought, “I’d love to buy this thing.” The rehab, although dilapidated, was minimal in the sense that it was doors and windows, refinished the floor. It wasn’t the typical full-gut rehab that we do. Our total budget ended up being between $35,000 and $40,000. Understand that it was a big house. It was about 3,000 square feet.
$35,000, $40,000 is a light rehab for you?
It was a 3,000 square foot house. It was a big house. That’s the only reason it was that high.
I want to touch on something that I don’t want to gloss over because it’s important. You’re going to have to educate me on this because I work my business a little bit differently. When you guys talked to him, he said, “No. I don’t want to sell it.” You kept him in your cold calling sequence to call later. Do you do that with all of your driving for dollars?
The short answer is yes. Back then, I had only two callers at the time. Now, I have five callers. I have four that call full-time and one that does follow-up. What we have found is our biggest deals come from follow-up by far. This was a perfect example. It took a year to put this thing together. He said no. He was adamant. He even said no the second time. After two months, now I’m like, “I’m hooked in.” I had his cell phone number. We had constant communication. We were working through the process.
After two months, we finally were able to bring this thing to a close. I decided to buy it so I raised some private money from a financial planner friend of mine. We ended up buying it. Our total rehab time frame was less than four weeks. We started construction immediately. In four weeks, we ended up listing the thing for sale six weeks after we bought it. We had it under contract over asking in four hours.
Let’s look at the numbers on this. You bought it for how much?
If you do enough small deals, you’ll find the big ones if you keep doing the process.
How much did you put into it?
$50,000, with closing cost and the whole deal.
You’re at $225,000.
It sold in the low threes. After expenses and everything, we ended up netting under $85,000.
From one call to a driving for dollars lead. That probably would have ended up on a lot of other lists. Let me ask you this because this is the most important part of that. Going through that process, getting the experience, everything is phenomenal. What went through your brain the first time you looked into your bank account after that deal and you saw an additional almost $85,000 in your account? What was going through your brain?
What went through my mind is the same thing that went through my mind in the first deal that I did that I mentioned when we started talking about the house I bought from the builder, “I want to do another one.” That one, I was in my early twenties. I made $30,881. I still remember it like it was yesterday. I’m driving this to check it and trying to keep my eyes on the road. Same feeling. You always say, “If you can do it, anybody can do it.” You do it once and you want to do it again.
For me, I get frustrated because I want them all to be $85,000 deals. I want them all to be massive profits. They can’t all be. For me, that’s what keeps me going. I’ve done deals where I’ve made $2,000. That’s what keeps me going. That’s how I do those small ones because I know that if I do enough small ones, I’m ultimately going to find the big one by continuing on, by keeping it going.
As a real estate agent in 2012, I remember I kept pushing and pushing and I would only have $12,000, $15,000 in my personal account in the business and personal combined. I was like, “That’s good money. I’ve got some savings. It’s awesome.” I remember I closed a deal for $42,000. I remember that going into my account. Now I have over $50,000 in my account.
I started shaking. My wife’s like, “What is the matter with you?” It was life-changing. It changes you. These massive deals change what’s going on in your brain and now you can push for more and more. What that bank account is showing you is your scorecard on how much value you’re providing to your neighborhood, to your community, to your business, to the world, from that standpoint. Your income equals the amount of value you provide. It feels so good building that up.
It’s not a greed thing. It’s giving you an indication that you’re making a difference out there in that neighborhood. I assume with that property that you sold, you sold it to somebody that’s going to keep that house up. It was a blight on the neighborhood forever. The neighbors are probably excited. It probably increased the values all around. Everything goes up by the work that we do. It is an incredible business to be a part of. I love it.
I couldn’t agree more, Brent. You make some good points. I had heard something similar a long time ago. Something to the fact of, “Money is a way to keep scores at some point in business.” It’s something to that effect. You’re right, it’s life-changing and a way to keep score. Unfortunately, there are a lot of negative connotations around money in general, making money, talking about money.
It’s changing. People are starting to get it. I hope so. Max, talk to me. Here’s the deal. You have in-house callers. Your story is similar to mine. Over the last couple of years, I have hired dozens of people to work in my office making calls. I have hired dozens of Filipino cold callers from cold calling offices in the Philippines.
I’ve hired Americans working in Costa Rica for the last few years that have made me millions, they truly have with Call Motivated Sellers but that’s a premium product. It’s $20 an hour. It’s Americans making calls. It’s top of the line. You were looking at this business and you were like, “How do I keep my budget tight?” The question was, “Can I train foreign callers to be as effective as American callers if I’m serious about it?”
I get hit up every single week from different companies, different products, different people saying they have cold calling companies, these centers and saying that they have everything. They don’t work. They’re not effective, they’re super shady, it’s gross and I don’t like it. It’s been years. For the last few years, every week, I get hit up.
Max was in the TTP program. He’s been working on it. He’s been supporting people in our private Facebook group. He’s done an incredible job in the community and he decided to start building out a company to be able to fit that lower-priced caller. It’s $10 an hour for an awesome caller he’s personally trained in the TTP method in his own methods and the way that they keep track of everything. Also, the way that they’re looking at their KPIs or their Key Performance Indicators the results that they’re getting from their calls.
He’s like, “Brent, I’m finally to the point, I want you to test this out. I will give you a caller. Give me a list.” I gave him a shot. We locked up a deal in the first month. Typically, it takes longer than that. I would say in all honesty that they’re about 85%. This is for my own experience but about 85% are as good as my callers and they’re half the price.
I’m doing all the pitching for you. If people want to think of it that way, it’s not. If you’re in this position to test this out, go for it. If you’re not, no big deal but it is another resource. The point of this show is to give you all the resources and instructions that you need to be successful. If you’re in a place, you should consider this as an option for calling if you want to start scaling or if you simply don’t have the schedule to do it. What’s your company name?
CallingReps.com is the website where people can go.
This is a small company. This is not something that you’ve got a thousand people working at.
I wish. We’re 16 or 17 people. I have about half a dozen called administrative staff or people that help me to do different things from training. I have a full-time English tutor that works with these guys.
Do what’s best for your client.
Let’s do this. Let’s assume people aren’t going to use your service but they want to get their own VA. Give them a couple of tips on what you should be looking for quality there. If they don’t want to mess with that, they can reach out to you and get hooked up.
I’ve been using VAs for everything for a long time. The calling is a unique aspect of virtual professionals. If I was advising someone looking to hire a caller or company doing the calling, I would want to know a few things. I’d want to know where are the people from. Every market is different whether you’re sending mail or whatever. Calling is no different. Knowing where they’re from is extremely important. Knowing how they’re trained is probably the second thing I would want to know. For all of my callers, we spent two weeks training and we use TTP. It’s extremely important that you have a uniform message so that would be number two.
Number three, I’d want to know the company and I want to understand what management and ongoing training they offer. What a lot of people don’t understand is a virtual professional is no different than an in-house employee. I had eight in-house, full-time callers from my office in Philadelphia at one point. A VA has to be managed the same way. There are some cultural differences but at the end of the day, if people are not trained to manage properly on an ongoing basis, people are going to do what they want to do. They’re not going to maintain that standard that guys like you and I insist upon.
People get a list, they skip tracing, they go to BatchSkiptracing.com. They skip trace, get the phone numbers and they give you the list.
We do it a little bit differently. We can do it that way. Like everybody, we use Call Tools. We set up a deal with the guys at Call Tools to get a pretty nice discount. I’m not paid by them. It’s something I wanted to work out. From there, we’re going to use the client CRM. I’m a lifetime member with InvestorFuse. I like that product but you can use whatever you want. For your business Brent, we send emails.
Those emails go to my lead manager that then puts them into InvestorFuse.
Fair enough. That’s a good distinction. My point is that we want to do what’s best for the client and the key takeaway there is that the client owns the data. I’ve heard stories of companies that when you go to leave, they want a fee. It’s like a hostage situation. They want money for you to get your own data. When you talk about sleazy and shady, believe me, I’m with you.
With CallingReps.com, the experience has been phenomenal and if you are in a place, definitely check that out. I wrote a couple of notes here, Max and then I’ll ask you a final question. The first note that I wrote here was interesting. He talked about when he found this opportunity they cold-called. It was driving for dollars. Are you using DealMachine?
No, I don’t. InvestorFuse had SendFuse, which I’ve since sold off but I was using SendFuse.
If you’d need a resource for driving for dollars DealMachine, use the TTP code. It is so easy. It’s going to give you all the information about that. You drove for dollars and then you decided you were going to raise money to close this thing. That is important. Remember guys, here’s the thing. When you’re going out there, you are the buyer. I don’t care if you have $0.13 in your bank account. Let me ask you this honest question, to everybody out there reading, if you want to see what this looks like, go to Brent Daniels – Real Estate on YouTube to put a face to the voice.
If you have a phenomenal deal, there are cash buyers lining up at the door that you could find. You could rack your brain and find somebody. If you found somebody that was a financial planner, you can find somebody that has the money to close on the deal. You need to go with confidence that you can close every deal that you put under contract and you should have the intention to close every deal that you have the contract.
If you assign it to somebody, that is an exit strategy. That is one of many. A lot of people get stuck and they don’t start here because they’re like, “I don’t have the money. I feel like I’m lying to them. I feel I’m not going to close on this and everything else.” You can find the money. I guarantee you if it’s a smoking deal. I don’t know a single person that has had a problem, getting people to give them money for a discounted property. You can do it so have that confidence, that’s number one.
It’s brilliant, Max. Number two is I go through my driving for dollars list. If they say no, we’ll recycle it a year later. You go through it after 2 or 3 months. I’m going to look at that because that might be the way to go. Even though they’re saying no, here’s the absolute truth with your driving for dollars list and why it’s so potent. It’s so potent because they have to do something. Either they have to have a big amount of cash or capital to invest in that property to bring it into livable or sellable conditions or they have to sell to a cash buyer.
A lot of times banks won’t finance these properties so they have to sell them to a cash buyer. It might as well be you. There are a couple of notes that I took there. I thought that was phenomenal. I appreciate the caller that we have that’s going bananas. He’s twenty hours a week adding leads, it’s phenomenal.
Forty hours a week full-time.
Check out CallingReps.com. It’s white club service. Max will treat you. He’ll get on the phone with you and walk you through it and help you out. Max, if you had to start completely all over again, I would give you $100 to find your first deal. What do you do?
I start with direct mail. If I wouldn’t be able to do that, I would call. Talk to people. I would pick up the phone and start dialing.
What list would you call?
Every market’s different. For my market, I like the absentee owners and vacant list. Especially in Philadelphia, there are a lot of vacant properties. There are a lot of opportunities there. Absentee owner and vacant. I would call. For the money, it’s the cheapest per lead cost by far. I’ve tried it all. I almost got buried by PPC. That’s what I would do and I would use TTP.
Thank you Max for joining me on this episode. Thanks for sharing a true inspiration. There are some great takeaways there. I hope you took some notes and are going to implement them. Remember, there’s no point in reading all these episodes for entertainment. We’re not that entertaining. We have authentic enthusiasm. We love this business but the point is to take these things so you can take action, get deals and change the financial trajectory of your life.
If you are interested in joining the most proactive group in real estate investing, it is the TTP Program, it is the TTP family. Go to WholesalingInc.com/ttp. Scroll down, see what the program’s about and check out all the testimonials. You’ll have to keep scrolling and scrolling because when people take action, people win. I want to point you in the right direction and work with you. If it feels good for you in your gut, sign up for a call. I’d love to work with you and that’s it. Thank you, Max, for being on. You’re incredible. For everybody out there reading as always, I encourage you to talk to people. Love you. Until next time. See you.
- Max Fisch
- Who Moved My Cheese?
- Call Motivated Sellers
- Call Tools
- Brent Daniels – Real Estate – YouTube
- Be sure to join the Wholesaling Inc Facebook group
About Brent Daniels
Brent Daniels is a multi-million dollar wholesaler in Phoenix, Arizona… and the creator of “Talk To People” — a simple, low cost, and incredibly effective telephone marketing program…
Also known as “TTP”… it helps wholesalers do more, bigger, and more profitable deals by replacing traditional paid advertising (postcards, yellow letters, bandit signs, and PPC) with being proactive and taking action every single day!
Brent has personally coached over 1,000 wholesalers enrolled in his “Cold Calling Mastery” training, and helped 10,000’s of others who listen to him host the Wholesaling Inc. podcast, watch his YouTube channel, and attend his live events…
A natural leader, Brent combines his passion for helping others with his high energy, “don’t-wait-around-for-business” attitude to help you CRUSH your wholesaling goals as quickly and easily as possible!